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Interesting Article

If you are a fan of Rick Warren and the whole purpose driven movement you may not have seen this. Check it out. Rick Warren's latest work involves worldwide charity. Sounds good until you take a closer look at his words and compare it with Scripture. This article does a good job of doing just that.

Comments

  1. ...well... I find the article to be rather short-sighted and not very well thought-out.

    Why does he stop and "speaking at interfaith meetings"? By his reasoning, if we do not start every conversation with someone without first saying, "Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven and if you do not follow Him you will burn," then we are condoning their lifestyle and guilty of sending them to hell (and I've got a better Scriptural backing to that than his poorly applied James passage: Ezekiel 33:6ff).

    In fact, Warren himself says that this particular initiative has to do with "interfaith projects" than it does "interfaith dialog". Thus, his seeking to work together with others says nothing about Christ's exclusive claims, salvation, grace, or works.

    In fact, Warren mentions his convictions as they are separate from his Muslim audience, thereby signifying a huge difference between the two groups.

    Further, the cited passage in James does not place an emphasis on which has to come first; rather, it emphatically states how there must be an interplay between both faith and works... apparently leaning more heavily on the side of works, stating even: You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

    Though, I do agree: Our works should flow out of our faith, which seems to be what Warren is trying to do: Increase the opportunity to help others by reaching out to those outside of Christiandom to do more good in the world (and there are plenty of times in Scripture where God uses pagans to bring about good, especially when His people were not doing it).

    I know nothing of Warren's work, or even if it is a good idea at all (it may be a terrible idea). But I think the article is horribly wrong in its accusations against Warren and the implications it draws from Scripture.

    Granted, I don't know Steve as you do, so perhaps I'm misreading his heart in all this. I mean his no disrespect, but I did feel that it was important to clear up what I see as incorrect use of Scripture to smear a man who is trying to follow God.

    ~Luke

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  2. Very good post.
    Noah Hutching warns against Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Church. Close to 6 years ago, my husband shared this with a group of Christian men and you should have heard then whine...they were in disbelief that such a movement was off the mark.

    If even the elect...

    Blessings to you.
    Glad to know about what you have shared.
    ~D~

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  3. Wow...that's bad. We never cared for Purpose Driven and couldn't see what the big to-do was all about.

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  4. I never follow Rick Warren. My husband brought back one of his books that some of the chaplains were giving out when he was deployed to the desert. I started reading it, and I feel foolish for even commenting because I can’t remember why I found fault with it, but for some reason I did.
    What really bothers me is that non Christians seem to think that he is the leader of all Christians. I have had a couple of conversations now where people disagreed with what I said because it did not match up to what they saw perceived to be coming from the top. Maybe I should pay more attention to what he says, and make more of an effort to remember it, just so that I know how to defend myself if we disagree.

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  5. Luke,
    Actually I don't know Steve or what his intentions are either. I just came across this article this morning (that particular website, in fact) and found it to be what I titled the post, an interesting article. It didn't really strike me that it was a personal smear against Rick Warren though. I've seen far worse criticisms that went so far as to attack him as a person.

    But the thing that did stick with me and I thought of it often throughout a very busy day was the point of faith and works. Faith first, works second. I'll just share here a few of my rambling, wondering thoughts from today. Hope they make sense!

    As I pondered today I wondered, "Does God find our works honorable just because they might be a good deed? And as for finding common ground...where is the Christian's common ground with someone whose religion demands murderous hatred towards anyone who does not share their beliefs? Are works worth setting aside your witness and confession of Christ just to get the job done? This isn't exactly like the Methodists and the Baptists getting together to form a food pantry. It IS a little different! :)

    It's true God can take anything or anyone and use it for His glory. Praise Him for where would we be otherwise? But we don't need to make the church blend into the world and conform with every belief out there in order to accomplish great things in His name. If I have to hide Jesus, how great is it? And...who then gets the glory?

    Tough questions that we should all be asking before we take anything at face value just because the word "God" gets stamped on it.

    Forgive me if my thoughts were not as coherent or articulate as they could have been in this comment. It's been a full day capped off with VBS tonight so my brain is fried. Nonetheless the article made me think and question. I'm glad it did the same for you.
    Be blessed.

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  6. Deanna,
    Yes, I first heard of Rick Warren when my husband had a theology class that was focused entirely on him and the Saddleback model. My husband wasn't impressed with his theology. :)

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  7. Mary,
    A lot of churches use the purpose driven model. Then you have this whole Emergent Church thing out there. After a while it just all seems like a gimmick for high numbers. I know not all cases are like that though.

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  8. Treany,
    I have noticed the same thing as though he is the face of Christianity today. Could it be the over exposure factor LOL?
    You weren't foolish at all! I haven't looked at the books in a long time myself so I would be ill prepared to give a point by point rebuttal. So don't feel bad.
    It is good to examine these things and figure out exactly where you stand. It can be hard when often it is just a soundbite here or there.

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  9. It certainly was an interesting article (and I enjoy reading all sides of things [smile]), so I'm glad you linked to it.

    "Does God find our works honorable just because they might be a good deed?"
    No, because God looks at our hearts: Why are we doing what we're doing. But does God find good deeds done by those who don't follow Him to be dishonorable? I don't think so. But maybe...

    "Where is the Christian's common ground with someone whose religion demands murderous hatred towards anyone who does not share their beliefs?"
    And this is the question: Can we talk to them? Can we eat with them? Can we work with them? Or must we keep them at arms length and continue to loudly proclaim their eternal situation?

    Granted, they are not us, and their beliefs are opposed to ours. But I don't see that as precluding us from loving them, doing things with them, and inviting them along to do good in the world.

    "Are works worth setting aside your witness and confession of Christ just to get the job done?"
    My question is: What is our witness and confession of Christ? Is it not more that we have been saved by the goodness of God through Christ, and less the vile station of the world? If so, then I see reaching out in love to others because of God's goodness to us as a great way to demonstrate Christ's work in our lives.

    Not that we should abandon our faith or denounce our beliefs to "do good"--which would not be good--but that I don't see our beliefs as requiring that we only ever do things with other Christians. Rather, we can be salt and light in the world by continuing to love the fatherless and the widow.

    And, again, this is all dependent on this idea being a good one in the first place. As I said: I have no idea if Warren's ideas are actually any good. My point is merely that I think we can, and should, show Christ's love in all situations... even when interacting/working with non-believers. I see the demand that we only do work where we can loudly proclaim God's justice to be misplaced and errant.

    Just a few thoughts.

    Thanks for sharing yours! Definitely making me think [smile].

    ~Luke

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  10. Luke,
    Great thoughts...I'll be pondering some more today as I go about my goings. :)
    I'll post or comment again as I have additional thoughts and TIME!

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  11. Hi, Luke
    Pondering the questions....

    Ok, does God find our works to be honorable just because they are good deeds? I would agree that God sees the heart and the intentions, however misguided they may be at times. :) How many times do we read in the Bible of people jumping ahead to do something for God, only to find it wasn't what He wanted? The intentions might have been good but it didn't mean that the deed that came out of those intentions was how God wanted to be honored. These were still believers.

    Unbelievers can be every bit as effective as Christians at performing good works. God also sees their hearts. A believer seeks to glorify God through his/her works. I don't think the flipside of that is that the unbeliever's works would DIShonor God. But the honor will go to someone. It may be to the individual if they have no faith of any sort. In the case of someone who serves a false god the glory will be directed to that god.

    Now for common ground. I have no qualms whatsoever with finding common ground with someone based on their general humanity. Certainly if my neighbor or coworker is a Muslim it doesn't mean that I have to avoid eating with them, working with them, and loving them as a person. If they are open to my friendship then that is the very best way to live Christ before them. That is a witness and testimony.

    I don't think shunning anyone was implied at all. The problem is that Warren is talking about joining hands with Muslims within his ministry. He isn't talking about witnessing to them. My understanding is this. He is making an active choice to join a ministry that is supposed to be about Christ with people who profess to HATE Christ. They make it known in no uncertain terms that it is their desire and goal to annihilate the Christians and Jews. Whereas we can find common ground as humans there is no common ground in faith. So the only way to find common ground in forming a ministry is to agree to set Jesus to the side to try to accomplish a good work. When a Christian makes that choice I believe it does dishonor God. At that point, I come back to my question of, "Who gets the glory?" Man? The false god? It won't be Jesus.

    It's not about loudly proclaiming God's justice, at least not for me anyway. That makes me picture this obnoxious, judgmental person who is really just proclaiming their own superiority rather than anything about God. My husband and I would never hesitate to minister to a Muslim and treat them with kindness, respect and love all the while ready to explain it is through Christ's love that we do so. But we would not start a ministry with them in our church or on our own. Would you or your dad go to a Muslim conference to ask for their involvement in choosing curriculum for Sonlight? I doubt it. That isn't judging them or alienating them. It is recognizing that doing so limits our chance to give God ALL the glory.

    For a little better picture of my beliefs on spending time with unbelievers read this post. There are more but this is just a recent one.

    http://mypeacefullychaoticlife.blogspot.com/2009/07/all-about-jesus.html

    You may find we aren't so far apart. :)

    Be blessed, Luke...you make me dig deeper and I like that!

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